Talk:Plagiarism And All That

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Don't know how accurate parts are but what the hey? A better timeline of dates, posts, what actually happened can be found here. --PurplePopple 19:22, 23 July 2006 (BST)

You currently have some of your attributions scrambled. My post from PoU on 6/23 (as Stealth User) appears down under hpfwa attributed to Colin Jackson, and your attributions from 6/23 switch on the PoU list to being at the bottom of the posts partway down. -- Avocado 14:47, 24 July 2006 (BST)

Smeg. Honestly. I realized where I goofed was that I didn't go to my LiveJournal first for this but went to where I had posted them and confused myself. Copy and Paste from my LiveJournal includes:

Disclaimers

Draco Sinister - Overall - Disclaimer posted by web site archive "Disclaimer: The plot and what ever things Cassandra Claire invented belong to Cassandra Claire. All characters from the Harry Potter series belong to J.K. Rowling. Anything else belong to who ever owns it. Don't sue me cause all I own is this site. Minzzer" http://minzzer.tripod.com/cassandra_claire.htm

Draco Sinister - Chapter 9 "Disclaimer: Not mine, JK’s. There are quotes in here from Red Dwarf (back when it was funny), Blackadder, Buffy, and I realized I’d criminally neglected Terry Pratchett so far, so made up for it by nicking several quotes in this chapter at once." http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/DS9.html

Draco Sinister - Chapter 11 "Disclaimer: Not mine, JKR’s. All of it." http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/DS11.html

Draco Sinister - Chapter 15 Cookie "This cookie contains a line from Buffy. She can stake me personally if it bothers her." Subject: [cassie & Rhyseen] DS15 cookie June 27, 2001

From Cassandra Claire messages regarding situation posted to public mailing lists

"All I can say is that beyond neverhiding the fact that quotes in the stories are taken from Buffy, Monty Python, Red Dwarf, and so on, I've clearly stated it in my disclaimers for the stories, there have been multiple (and in-depth) discussions on PoU about the quotes with people having fun identifying them, and I even have an unofficial quote-nabbing game with some of my fellow authors." Subject: [cassie & Rhyseen] *is quietly mystified* June 23, 2001

"As for The Secret Country, I also stated in my disclaimer that Draco's trip to the afterlife was an homage to Pamela Dean, and a friend of hers (Pamela Dean's) wrote me after I posted it nd said she loved the homage, thought it was great. There was some discussion of Dean's books on the PoU list as well afterwards. I was planning to do some crossover stuff with it down the line. " Subject: [cassie & Rhyseen] *is quietly mystified* June 23, 2001

"I am not planning on changing the style in which I write my stories, or ceasingto include homages and references where I wish to. "Plaigarism" is, by dictionary definition, borrowing work from a source and passing it off as your own. I have borrowed quotes, and quite intentionally paraphrased that scene from Pamela Dean, and was quite clear in stating that I was doing so. I was *not* passing off the Buffy quotes or any other reference as my own work (as anyone on this list clearly and surely knows.) However, as far as ff.net is concerned (from what I can tell) they do not care that I clearly cited the works I borrowed from. " Subject: [paradigmofuncertainty] cassie’s position June 23, 2001

"I have always seen fanfiction as a venue in which I can do what I *cannot* do in those other venues -- namely, what Minx called earlier (and with accuracy, I thought) a "pastiche" --- weaving together JKR's world with my own plotline, and incorporating bits and pieces of other fantasy worlds. I'd have to ask you if you've been a member of the PoU list -- if you were, you'd have seen the discussions that follow the release of each chapter -- "Oh, that's the swordfighting bit from Zelazny," "Oh, that's the scene from thus-and-such episode of Buffy" -- I had never made it any secret that that's what I was doing, and since fanfiction is by its nature so derivative, and since I have seen so many other fanfics doing similar things -- pulling chunks of text from books, rewriting scenes from movies, dozens upon dozens of quotes from Buffy and Monty Python and Blackadder and so forth (I even had a sort of unofficial quote-nabbing contest going with other fanfic writers -- if we found a cool quote we'd claim it for our next chapter before anyone else snagged it) it really did seem to me that as long as it was disclaimered, it was fine. As long as I was clear about what I was doing, it was fine. I used to get dozens of emails in which readers sent me sources -- sometimes quotes, sometimes whole pages of text from books or plays -- saying "Cassie, I think you should have Draco say this" or "maybe you could use this description/place/setting." It seemed to me that my audience understood what I was doing, or trying to do, with my fanfiction, and that as long as I was not concealing this from them, it was all right. As for the Pamela Dean section, when it came out she was discussed on PoU. People were pointed (not by me) to where on the web they could download the complete text of her books( now there's copyright infringment for ya.) So I didn't feel as if I were trying to hide anything." Subject: re: [cassie & Rhyseen] ff.n June 25, 2001

"Cheers, Maddy. And just to say, I *did* go to the author for permission, yesterday. And sent her a copy of the chapter. We've exchanged some very nice email since.

"I'll let you know how it shakes out. Odd that she was so very much less concerned bout this than say, Michaela, considering that she's the one with the right to be upset in the first fucking place." Subject: [ranting_page] re: ranting away June 26, 2001

"I said I was IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO GET PERMISSION AND THAT WE HAD EXCHANGED EMAILS. READ MORE CAREFULLY." Subject: [ranting_page] re: ranting away June 27, 2001

Other misc comments directly pertaining to PD material in Cassie’s stories

"FTR, I am the person who wrote to Cassie expressing my pleasure that she had done a tribute to Pamela's work in her fanfic. Pamela is indeed a friend of mine whom I have known for years (and with whom I am still in contact via the FidoNet WRITING echo/newsgroup), and my happiness to see her referenced in Cassie's work was due to my belief that Pamela's SECRET COUNTRY books (which are currently out of print) are not known or appreciated half as well as they deserve. Basically, I was just happy to find that Cassie had read and enjoyed the books too.

"I do not, however, speak for Pamela or presume to do so. I have no idea what she personally feels about her writing and her ideas being used in someone else's fanfic. It may be that even with Cassie's acknowledgement that she was borrowing from the Secret Country books (an acknowledgement which I agree with everyone was quite clearly posted at the beginning of the chapter in question), Pamela might not like to have her work used in this manner. Personally, she doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would sue FF.net or Cassie for plagiarism, but the FF.net people don't know Pamela and I can understand why, once the borrowing was pointed out to them, they might panic and act immediately to try and protect themselves from legal action." Subject: [paradigmofuncertainty] About Pamela Dean & Cassie… From: Rebecca J. Bohner Date: June 23, 2001

"I could ask Pamela privately what she thinks of Cassie's borrowing, but I am afraid to do so lest it cause more problems. I would like to see this cleared up because I think Cassie did everything she could to borrow honestly and not seem to be passing other people's work off as her own; but on the other hand I am not certain that asking Pamela *would* clear the matter up, or just make it worse (and possibly distress Pamela as well, which I really don't want to do)." Subject: [paradigmofuncertainty] About Pamela Dean & Cassie… From: Rebecca J. Bohner Date: June 23, 2001

"I *think* that any aggravated original authors who have the time and energy to take a mailing list to court need to get busy writing stories. Oops, that wasn't where I was trying to take that sentence.... I think they would be hard put to sue anyone with disclaimers who also hasn't made any money on the project. " Subject: re: [paradigmofuncertainty] please don’t hate me! From: Constance L. Date: June 23, 2001

"But for copyright infringement, there are a few things that the law considers when making a determination. First and foremost is the amount of work that is copied word for word, and second is the "importance" of that copied section in the original work. A third relevant factor is the percentage of the second work that the first work comprises. (Section 107 - see bottom of this post) Also, rephrasing something can never be copyright infringement, no matter how original the first writer's idea is. It is impossible as a matter of law to copyright an idea, and therefore, copying and rewriting an idea is never copyright infringement.

"In this matter, the work from the Dean book was (I counted it) under 500 words from, as I understand it, a 200ish page book, and Cassie's DS is over 200 pages itself. Now, it is possible that taking under 500 words could be infringement - look at poems, of which 500 words could be the whole thing. But there is only one oft-relied-upon case, involving Gerald Ford's memoirs and an unpublished work, which says that such a small section of similarity constitutes copyright infringement, and in that matter, the first work was unpublished and the "taking" was for purely commercial purposes - namely, to sell magazines. We all know that cassie doesn't post for financial gain! It is a very very very difficult line to draw, and I am not sure that a court would rule that what cassie did was copyright infringement. It certainly wasn't plagiarism - that's defined as "to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source intransitive senses : to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source" according to merriam webster. She gave full credit to the book when she posted the chapter; therefore, she did not pass off the words from the book as her own.There is a distinction between plagiarism and copyright infringement. Ffnet does not seem to realize that." Subject: [paradigmofuncertainty] copyright infringement From: Heidi Tandy Date: June 23, 2001

"b) She stated quite clearly at the beginning AND the end of the chapter that she had used Pamela Dean's novel as inspiration" Subject: [paradigmofuncertainty] A confession… please don’t hate me…. From: Colin Jackson Date: June 23, 2001

Cassandra Claire is a professional in a field where this issue is a serious one. Rest assured she knows the definitions of plagiarism. So does her primary beta-reader, who despite what certain posters said over at ff.net really *is* a copyright and intellectual properties attorney." Subject: [hpwfa] re: so…. How about them admins… From: Ebony AKA AngieJ Date: June 23, 2001

"Cassie had a disclaimer, and they didn't even send her so much as an email of warning." Subject: [hpwfa] re: so…. How about them admins… From: Colin Jackson Date: June 23, 2001

"Credit for the inspiration for this conception of the wizarding afterlife goes to a book called The Secret Country - written by Pamela Dean.

"Before today, the author's note said this (at the end of the chapter only, the one at the beginning only mentioned Pratchett):

"NB: Credit for the inspiration for this conception of the wizarding afterlife goes to a book called The Secret Country, alas, I no longer recall who wrote it." Subject: [paradigmofuncertainty] Re: Cassie's position-- a few comments From: Stealth User Date: June 23, 2001

"1) She gave a disclaimer. She didn't "pass off other people's work as her own" -- she gave credit for the Secret Country quote and she always says in disclaimers that she uses quotes from Buffy, Blackadder, etc. She never said that they were completely of her own originality.

" 2) Is she getting any *benefit* out of it? Does she get any money out of writing DS, other than the pleasure of writing fiction and the appreciation from her readers? Why should the ffnet staff be going after her if she's not even making any commercial gain out of it?

" I study accountancy and am familiar with commerical/legal rights as such. "Damage" can only be claimed if there is a monetary loss, or conversely, a transfer of financial benefit as a result of the action. Was there? So, in school, people get expelled for plagiarism. That's because they plagiarize to get ahead in their studies, to get better grades etc. That's with a motive. Does Cassie have any motive to do that? She's writing, and sharing her writing, with us for *nothing*. Can't we just appreciate her for that?" Subject: [paradigmofuncertainty] my views on the matter From: Rhysenn Date: June 23, 2001

"4) Fanfiction *itself* is an act of plagiarism, however you look at it. You're using someone else's ideas, characters, universe, and creating new situations for yourself. Face it -- Michela and everyone else who argues fanfiction itself isn't plagiarism -- because it *IS*. You're walking a fine line of argument and it's not holding much water. Why do you think Anne Rice asked that the Vampire Chronicles section be taken out? Because she probably felt that the written works infringed on her own right to her own created characters." Subject: [paradigmofuncertainty] my views on the matter From: Rhysenn Date: June 23, 2001

--PurplePopple 16:44, 24 July 2006 (BST)

TL;DR. --Thephotoman 17:47, 24 July 2006 (BST)